SPEAKER_02 0:00

Cold as winter.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Cold as winter.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Hello and welcome to the Kohheed Chronicles. This is episode two. My name is Joel, and I'm here with Zach, and this is a podcast that is breaking down the entire Cohe and Cambria discography in lore order, talking about the story behind the music, the story in making the music, and uh talking about it from a musician standpoint as well. Uh again, I'm Joel, and this is Zach.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Hello. We go through episodes two, like Attack of the Clones.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

That's uh that's not Kohe.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Someone else.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

No real like major Koheat news this week. Uh we touched on it last week that the Year of the Black Rainbow sort of novel re-release is coming out with some new artwork. It's uh finally coming out. We got an update that it's supposed to ship towards the end of July. So if you don't have a copy of the original Year of the Black Rainbow, perfect opportunity to get it, and you can follow along with uh what we're doing here. We're starting with that whole record. That's the the prequel record. And then the other news that came out relatively recently was uh Claudio released another handful of his Jackhammer guitar, his custom guitar, and uh Zach actually happens to have a Jackhammer. Uh so I figured you know he might he might have some insight on on that whole that whole deal. Uh I know you don't fancy yourself like a super guitar technician, but like it's pretty cool, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Oh, it's super cool. I love playing it. It's it's an amazing guitar, it's hefty, it's got such a cool shape and feel to it. The electronics in it sound great. Um I play with it live. I also love just jamming out to Koheed songs on my amp and headphones at home, but it's a great versatile live guitar. I, you know, uh I was afraid of um I had FOMO when they first drop released last year, and so I quickly like I tried to do some dental gymnastics in my head as to whether or not I whether I could or could not afford it. And by the time I rationed that I could, I had to kind of like I had to finagle some things. I was like, yeah, I could I can get one of these. By the time I rationed that I could, which was like less than an hour after the initial jackhammer's dropped, um, the one that I wanted to get was already sold out. And then while I had the my second choice, which was the uh all-white one, I don't have a white guitar and I wanted a white guitar. Uh, but I had the all-white one in my cart, and I was literally in the process of checking out with it. Again, this is second choice, and then that one disappeared, and it also sold out while I was trying to buy it. So I got the last option, which was the Korean-made black jackhamber. So it was my third choice, but you know what? It's still an awesome guitar, and I love it. Do I wish that maybe I'd waited a year to get some of these new options? Maybe, because I can't afford to. But I would highly recommend anyone who likes playing guitar wants to sound like Claudio. Uh well, you'd have to work really hard to do that, but tone-wise, you can sound like Claudio and you can feel like Claudio, so highly recommend checking out the Jackhammers.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Is is owning a jackhammer and playing the jackhammer a little bit like Koheed cosplay?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Um, yeah, I would say so. Uh, I mean, the first it's it's a canon event that the first thing you have to do when you open up the jackhammer is play in keeping secrets of Saliner 3. That's just that's that's like that's required for unboxing the instrument. Yeah, you can't progress any further until you play that song.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

It comes in the instruction manual.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah, awesome. So this week's song is the third track on Year of the Black Rainbow, and it's a song titled Guns of Summer. And my musician's brain that was trained in songwriting 25 years ago thinks this song is wild and wildly disjointed. But uh, as we'll come to find out while we talk about this, it's kind of by design. Uh, I have a couple of quotes here, uh, specifically uh from Claudio first. Uh he said this, I believe, on a blog. One of the things that I want to do was to start to incorporate synth, a bit of programming into the band, and that's why we wanted to work with Atticus. So that's interesting because obviously the whole album has this different feel and a much more electronic feel than their previous records, and it kind of opens the door for Koheed, who jumps into that world a little bit more almost on every record, uh and working with Atticus, I think, opened the door for that. Uh, and then the other major difference with Year of the Black Rainbow compared to all the other Koheed records is Chris Penny. Chris Penny was only in the band for a short period of time, and his drumming style is wildly different from uh Josh's style. And uh I found this to be interesting. This is a quote from Chris Penny on the writing of the song, and this you can find him saying this in the uh track by tracks that are on YouTube. He said it's actually one of the first, the very first tunes we came up with jamming on it backstage. We just kind of worked on it. It was all these other things that Atticus and Joe kind of added on top of it. So to me, I feel like Chris saying that this was the first song that they worked on together makes total sense because this song to me as a drummer is like the most Chris Penny of the whole record. Like it's the most it's the most wild and out there song, and I can just imagine if they're like in soundchecks or they're backstage or whatever, jamming and like Claudio is like trying to get the feel for Chris's style, and like they're just feeling each other out, and that also to me sort of is a potential reason why the song feels kind of disjointed when you don't know the whole backstory. It's like maybe they just had all these cool parts, and like what can we do here? I don't know. And then the other quote I found was from Claudio on Chris Penny's drumming specifically, and Claudio says he kicked ass on this album. There are a lot of songs on the record that I'm not sure we would have been able to execute the way we did had we not had Chris. Certainly songs like Guns of Summer and In the Flame of Air. What I'm playing and what Chris is playing and how it looks to works together on the record, it almost feels like the gears of a clock turning. It's very strong, and again, I'm not sure we would be able to accomplish stuff like that had he not been a part of the outfit. And I totally agree with that. And and I love Josh, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that Chris was uh when I when I think back of Chris Penny's tenure in the band, do I in hindsight think Chris is the best drummer for Cohen Cambria? No. Do I think he was the perfect drummer for Cohen Cambria at the time that they were going through? Yeah, it was awesome. I mean, he came from a different background, a much more metal and math rock technical background, but it was also at a time when those guys were starting to branch out and just like really kind of get wild and crazy with their musicality. And so I think that he complimented the style well in that he totally helped, you know, so many of the incredible, unique sonic textures of this album rhythmically. Uh, and Guns of Summer is a perfect example. It's funny. I want to go back to uh not to not get not to derail it too much, but your your quote about Claudia wanting to work more with Synth, and that was why he was drawn to work with Atticus. Uh, it's funny because there's one synth part that I think of associated with a song before the Spectrum came out, but now I realize it's pretty close in time because it's actually from a live recording. But the live Never Ender 2008 version of Gravemakers and Gunslingers uh has a really cool kind of groovy synth bass intro type thing going on. Do you know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_02 8:16

I don't, I don't, but I believe it because those those live recordings and those shows, they had that uh they had the percussion guy and then they had the the keyboard guy. Was it Wes Wes Styles, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah, yeah. And Wes so so Wes played a lot of keys, a lot of synth on it, and he did a really cool groovy like the bon on bonna no bon um. Maybe you can find the life clip later and edit it. I don't know. But I think that's a good idea. That also sounds kind of like a precursor to the writing style a little bit of Guns of Summer, because it's interesting too, because Chris is playing that live in The Never Ender, even though and and he did technically write um he wrote the parts according to the lore of the writing of the record. Yeah, so I it they they sort of feel sonically like kind of I mean they're obviously all connected, they're all part of the Amory Wars Cohen and Cambria mythology, but those two songs in particular, Grave Makers of Gunslingers and Guns of Summer, they both have guns in the name, but uh they both kind of feel sort of sonically connected in in a way to me. And and that um comment about the synth just kind of reinforced that a little bit. But maybe that's I don't know, maybe that's nothing, maybe it's something.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Maybe it's something. So let's get to Zach's rapid recap. Let's let let's set the scene if you can, Zach. Just to preface this a little bit. I am coming to this whole project not really knowing the lore. I've read some things here and there, but I haven't really studied it or read it in full. And Zach has read it, I believe, multiple times, and he's just a big enthusiast. He's a big reader in general, and he loves all this stuff. So I'm letting Zach take the reins here and give us a quick recap and setting the scene for where we are right now in Guns of Summer, Year of the Black Rainbow.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Okay, so our previous episode we discussed um the events that led to the onset of the Mage Wars. Specifically, it was it was a discussion between Wilhelm Ryan and Covent Marth, where Martha confronted Ryan about witnessing a future where uh I think Ryan took control or he brought lots of death and destruction. It's it I I apologize because that chapter I I I kind of skimmed a little bit. The the most recent ones I read much more thoroughly. But uh so we left off at the onset of this great galactic war beginning, and also uh we were introduced to our our heroes, Coheat and Cambria, but that was through more of a flash forward mechanism. The story starts kind of in media ray where there's a mission happening, Coheed and Cambria have been introduced to us in in that first mission. Uh, so we get to so we learn in that initial chapter that they're uh designed to fight the forces of Wilhelm Ryan, and they discover a keywork mining project that is actually mining human souls on a planet called the Howling Earth. So, really, we kind of just left off with the broken being the introduction to Wilhelm Ryan as a character and the friction between the different mages, which I don't know if we established it yet, but there are 12 mages, they're each in charge of ruling different sectors of Heaven's Fence, supposedly anointed by God in the book of uh Gansgrad. Although we later learn that God is a person and his name is Claudio.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Okay, so before we get into the lore, then I feel like this is a good spot to insert the character deep dive, and there's not a specific character that I want to go into, but really the would you call it a race? The mages?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, they are they are a specific race. They're they're actually referred to as a cataloged species in the lore of the Amory Wars universe. And they're interesting, they're definitely magical, super being kind of powered. Um they seem to be maybe related to, maybe, maybe not, but uh to another species called the prize, which is the uh kind of the third main cataloged inhabitants inhabitants, the first one being man, human beings. That's the dominant species in this galaxy. Most people are humans, but there are there are at least twelve mages.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

So that that was a question I had actually about the mages. Uh they set the stage that there's twelve of them to begin, and they're all the supreme mages or whatever. They're not the supreme mage, but they're all like in charge of their own sectors. But it was unclear.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Call them arch mages, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah. It was unclear to me if like there were like jobber mages or just like normal like red-headed step mages that like are just like part of the world that are not in power of some kind, or if maybe like when you become a politician, you become considered a mage. But like it's just it was unclear to me as as a new reader.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

So there are, and it's interesting because there are other members of the mage species that are not necessarily the ruling class of mages. It's unclear how many there are. It still seems like there's very few of them around, but they're kind of like faceless, like nondescript sort of raw beings, if you will. There are other mages. Uh, in fact, there's a chapter in In Keeping Secrets, uh, the comic book, where it's revealed that one of the mages essentially broke away, he disappeared. Uh, I think his name is Grave Minnototar. Uh oh, Grave Met Mage Grave Minnototar of Sector 9 vanished, eluding Ryan's subsequent search for him. Rumors would circulate for centuries about the missing mage, speculating as to whether he'd nearly escaped when no other had, or simply ended his own life by his own terms. So we get an update on him later. He's actually training new mages to try to like start a mage rebellion against Wilhelm Ryan, but that's like in the shadows happening in the corners of the galaxy. We'll touch on that more in the Keep It Secrets, but that is just to prove that there are other mage-like beings that can be essentially grafted into being arch mages. It's one of those things that Claudio didn't elaborate on very much, but they're powerful, they're blue, they have different face blue. They are blue. So so one thing I believe is that they are largely pretty close to identical, but they have like in terms of like bone and face structure, but they all have distinct markings and like hairstyles and beard styles and and stuff like that. So like there's a there's a nice spread where there's a flashback looking at all the mages together, the arch mages, and they all have different looks about them, even though they're all blue-skinned, white-haired beings. So it's kind of like the clones. Big horns Star Wars. Yeah, kind of. Um the clones are magical. It's they have big big horns, they have two big fucking horns coming out of their back. I don't know why, but they do. It's it's part of part of their signature look, but they're relatively humanoid otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Well, so that was another another question I had was about uh magic and and the supreme trimage. I don't want to get too deep into it right now, but like there's talk in these chapters of a previous supreme trimage, but was there one at the time when we get into this? Because, you know, Ryan has his sights on that during this whole this this three-chapter arc we we w uh read through. But was there at the time, was Covent Marth the Supreme Tri Mage, or was there one at all, or were they all just you know there was no Supreme Tri Mage at the time Ryan took power?

SPEAKER_01 15:54

There was a historical Supreme Trimage who had taken power in eons or maybe centuries past. The time, how much time has passed in the creation of the Emery Wars universe has never been solidified either. It could be a few hundred years, it could be thousands of years, we we don't know. But there was a supreme trimage of history. He was he he took power and he was somehow either defeated, maybe he just died of old age, but there was only one, and all the other mages of their rulers of their relative sectors, they all kind of worked together in a more or less kind of democratic fashion, but they were also the rulers of their own domain. They had like a council of mages that got together. The politics of Heaven's Fence also are not super clear of how this works either. Uh, because it's interesting because on the human level, life looks not that different from like you and I. Like people on planet side, met you know, humans have jobs, they have families, they got cars in a lot of places that drive on wheels, they also have spaceships sometimes, but you know, the there's a more or less regular class of society, but the machinations of how the structures of government work are not super clear. They do have an FBI though. I don't know what that means.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

I suppose we'll get into that later. But so this song, Guns of Summer, even though there is a chapter called Guns of Summer, it sort of makes its way through three chapters, chapters I believe three, four, and five. And uh let's just let's just go over some of the story beats in these chapters. Chapter three mostly focuses on the introduction of Leonard Hohenberger and his son Joseph and a disagreement that they had about Joseph going to some kind of a protest of the Mage Wars, and Joseph makes some convincing enough arguments that Leonard allows him to go to these protests, and then uh as the morning progresses, Leonard goes to see his wife Pearl in her little greenhouse, as he calls it, I believe. Uh, and they have a little morning discussion on their own, and when he reveals to her that he's let Joseph go to this protest, she freaks out and they have to go get him.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah. Uh she so Pearl is very concerned for her son's safety. Joseph is kind of an ideologue. Uh, I mean, uh, he seems just sort of like a you know, free-spirited person who likes democracy and and, you know, First Amendment rights and second and things like that, but I don't know if they have those out there. Uh, but the Heaven's Fens as a whole are largely upset about the destruction being wrought upon them by the Mage Wars. You know, these are people that are just trying to go about their daily lives that are now being, you know, very much tangentially affected by the mage wars. There's a couple of pages at the very beginning of chapter three, which does a brief overview of the chronology of the mage wars, uh, and it talks about how the collateral damage of the mage wars was reaching a level that many found unacceptable. And so there's a lot of protests happening in response to this. But again, the politics of this are kind of pretty briefly glossed over. We're still in opening chapters of this book here.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Yeah, that I I forgot about that section. That section kind of acts like like the Star Wars crawl of the chapter. It sort of tells you we've we've not only have we backed up from the first chapter, but we've now kind of fast-forwarded from the second chapter a little bit from that first conversation between Marth and Ryan, and the mage wars are like in full effect, and it gives you some idea of what Ryan has been doing, the other mages who have disappeared, and and the whole like we're we're in the thick of it now.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah, absolutely. And uh it's okay that we're jumping all over the place because the songs do that too. They don't take place in chronological order all the time. Joseph goes to this protest. Leonard actually, I was actually really impressed by by Dr. Hohenberger because it's it's described that he does not want to go to this protest, not because he doesn't support it, but because he doesn't like crowds. He doesn't want to like get involved. Uh he's very much kind of a homebody, but also, you know, a scientist likes to keep to himself. I thought there was a quote in there about him not cutting his hair for six to eight months at all. I'm like, that's crazy, man.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Yeah, well he he he didn't like to get it cut.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

He doesn't care about it. Yeah, but six to eight months, that's a long time to and I'm a long-haired person. That's a long time to go without getting it cut. But Dr. Hohenberger actually offers to go to this protest with Joseph. Uh, and it's Joseph who's like, no, that'd be lame. I can't have my dad around.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

No dad.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

This protest. When it's like, in hindsight, if Dr. Hohenberger would have gone with them, it just got me thinking. I was like, would Joseph be safe? Would they have gotten out? Would Dr. Hohenberger meet uh unfortunate fate too? Skipping ahead a little bit, but it turns out that uh Pearl uh had good reason to uh be upset with her husband and uh to be upset that her son had gone to this protest because it was in fact dangerous. Uh Wilhelm Ryan is launching this, you know, extremely authoritarian onslaught against the against Heaven's Fence. And uh by the way, the Hohenburgers live on Apity Prime, which is kind of like the Coruscant of Heaven's Fence, if you will. It's the capital planet of Sector One, and it is sort of, you know, kind of the the like the capital seat of government. The House Atlantic, which is sort of like the Kremlin or the White House or the Imperial Palace, it's the bad guys, you know, government palace that he lives in. That's in Sector One, that's on Apity Prime, and the Hohenbergers kind of live in the countryside, sort of outside of that, but close enough to uh to to a major city where this protest was happening. And Joseph goes, the protest, and unfortunately, we don't know what happens actually. We kind of just catch up with Joseph as he has been shot, actually. So the the protest somehow devolves into you know severe violence where people are getting shot and it sounds like blown up and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah, the the violence is is actually very graphic, I I would say, described in the very colour.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Very visceral, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

But like there's this a scene where he's he's there at the protest and he sees like like a a crush he had or like a a girl who was in class with him and she's I I don't remember exactly what had happened to her, but it was very graphic and and brutal. And it's it's almost like he he disconnected like his whole disassociated.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Yeah. Yeah. Like his whole uh way of handling what he was seeing was just kind of like not really being present and kind of more in his mind it it felt like and not really like understanding like logically what was happening uh even though it was happening all around him which was sad for him.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

His main concern was um that he had spilled that he had blood on his that his mom gave him and that was so sad to read.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

So so Joseph meets an untimely death uh just as his parents arrive and they dies in his mother's arms.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I was gonna say they make it seem like he died in his mom's arms which was I guess nice in a way but also devastating also horrible tragic yeah there's a there's great artwork of that by the way if you want to see this horrible tragic scene uh it's official artwork. If you look at the Guns of Summer uh vinyl it was like the picture disc cover for that you could see Pearl clutching Joseph as he's dying so real cheery artwork to look at.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Yeah I forgot to mention that they actually released this as a seven inch single randomly on a record store day probably in 2010 when the record came out but it was not an official single but they did release that so I'm curious I'd I'll go check out that artwork.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah so that's pretty much all of chapter three chapter four the worst these worlds receive do you want to get into it or you want me to describe it?

SPEAKER_02 23:35

So from my recollection of chapter four Marth is there with Krom is that his name VLR Crom yep and they they believe that they are winning the war and that they have Ryan caught dead to rights in his citadel and they have a brief conversation and Marth is not like the uh I'm gonna kill everybody type but crom is and crom's like just just do it like why why would you let him live?

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Krom is a is a pragmatist uh he's he's he's more realistic he he's he recognizes that Wilhelm Ryan is a threat and uh it's kind of like base windu he's too dangerous to be left alive. He wasn't wrong.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Yeah and so he convinces Marth to like take him out and so Marth or makes the order and they they destroy the citadel and Marth thinks that he's won and that he goes back to his chambers or or or his his zone in his citadel and starts to contemplate what life is going to be like now without Ryan and how the future will be shaped when all of a sudden they make it sound like Ryan's voice is just like booming inside of this chambers and it's like all over the place and it's Ryan's voice speaking to Marth and Marth can't believe it because he thought he killed him and turns out guess what? He didn't and Ryan survived.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

How did he survive?

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah that's that's what Marth wants to know. But so Ryan feels a little bit you know Emperor Palpatini in some of these these things where it's like he's learning the ways of previous supreme trimages because that's what he wants to be and he wants total control and some of these supreme trimages have powers or abilities that maybe the mages have not passed down or whatever it is and and the one that were lost to time. Yeah the one that stuck out in this one Hohenberg not Hohenberger uh Marth was talking about was teleportation and how how could how could Ryan have survived and it's implied that perhaps he was there like he said he was or like the intel said he was but he zoomed out of there got out of there before the bombs came down or whatever. Ryan explains to Marth that hey you know if you took the time to you know research and learn rather than just hold me down and and prevent power from ascending maybe you'd have been able to do this too.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

So I have um I have a theory about Ryan's teleportation and it's just a theory because it's not really explained in detail whether he can or cannot teleport but it does come back and there's a lot of reason to believe that he could teleport in some way. But I think it's not like it's like his X-Men mutant power like I learned to teleport. I think it's more like Ryan is actually bending the fabric of state of space and time to insert himself into different places. And it's not um I don't think he's he's able to do that like absolutely on demand, but I think he can kind of do it when he needs to there's evidence to suggest that he can manipulate things at like a almost like a molecular I mean there is molecular level because he does something he does something that no one else has been able to do also in this chapter in the way that he uh kills Covent Marth uh he atomizes him yeah explain that so let me let me pull it out Wilhelm Ryan severed the bonds that were holding Covent Marth's atomic structure together there was a sizzling like the meat being overheated and a final ear splitting scream and then Marth blew apart in a million directions simultaneously there's no blood no gore with destruction at an atomic level such a thing uh was impossible one moment Marth was there and the next he wasn't there was nothing left of him save for a black spotch on the ground where he had combusted so he has the power to just explode people that's right yeah it is it's how is anyone supposed to win against this guy yeah so so so again I think that Wilhelm Ryan is is channeling these powers and he's learning he's tapping into uh you know the the dark side if you will not that exactly but he's tapping into these supernatural powers becoming more powerful siphoning off probably from the souls of the keyword to get in there but he's not perfect at doing it yet but he can do it in a pinch when he's really motivated to he can get out he can teleport or he can atomize a guy yeah just to I atomize that guy he he disagreed with me so like bam dead. Oh but important important to to to to put a pin on this chapter uh you mentioned that VLR Krom was Marth's general in opposition to Wilhelm Ryan but uh the chapter ends where Ryan essentially plans a surprise ambush to kill all of Marth's remaining forces except for General Crom. Ryan has specific plans for him and that will also come back later.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

I mentioned Krom I think in last episode file this away for later keep filing him for later okay and then the the final chapter chapter five that this song encompasses is basically like a a rally or a celebration of the mage war's ending and Ryan's triumphant victory and it's it's painted a little bit like the audience or the the the crowd on hand is happy because the war is over. They're not necessarily happy because Ryan is in charge but they're just happy that the destruction and and that they don't have to look over their shoulders every time they go out in a crowd and but there are still some protesters who are not happy and they're very brave protesters who decide to stand in front of this giant tank that Wilhelm Ryan is riding in and you know you would think that Ryan would just atomize them or something you know because that's that's what he knows how to do but he was trying to be I I don't know benevolent or he was trying to be nice and like you know Ryan was trying to be a good guy.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

He's like hey get out of my way.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah move out of the way please I uh this is unacceptable this is a a a a moment of great triumph and some of them moved out of the way uh but some of them did not and so the tanks just uh ran them over well they honestly it's the protesters' fault for antagonizing the rightful government they were assaulting the the tank driver who was just trying to do his job so you know they acted in self-defense on that one I think and it's it's funny like some of them I guess tried to uh change their mind at at the last second and the ones who didn't change their mind like pulled them down so they all got squished too and then the ones that did change their mind and jumped out of the uh the way of the tanks ended up getting pushed back in front of the tanks by the protesters uh by the crowds that were in support of Ryan. Right not the protesters the the the the the people who were like there and were happy and they're like ah screw you bam right in front of the tank.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So this is I mean honestly this is a fucking crazy sequence if you think of like the implications on like what this means of how the people of Heaven's fence were responding to something like this. Like just bananas behavior on all sides of people like one for so many people to come out and you know be in genuine support of Wilhelm Ryan for ending the mage war. I mean I could think of some people in recent history that uh maybe have ended wars that they also started and I don't see a lot of people out here well maybe some but I don't see the vast majority of people out here you know parading and cheering their name and and what a great victory. We're so happy we're not at war anymore. But also the fact that you know the the protesters would be in the minority I mean I I guess it really comes down to the fact that Wilhelm Ryan his forces are too strong. But it's just crazy to think that the morale is is somehow in it in his favor at all at this point. But he does do something nice for the people here. Wilhelm Ryan is not he's not he's he's a horrible you know uh you know dictator murderer abuser type person but he gives out free drinks once in a while you can't say he's you can't say he's all that greedy he's willing to share with the people well he they make it sound like he's about to spray them with some kind of liquid from a hose or something like and they're all like worried about what it is but it turns out to be some kind of beverage I guess alcoholic beverage but it sort of starts this chain reaction of like rioters and and partying and like going over the top with like looting similar behavior you see to like when certain teams win championships here in America like people go crazy and it's like I'm so happy I gotta flip this car.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

I'm so happy I'm gonna loot this business.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yay you know uh it's New York after the next next game.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

I just say yeah but uh uh the people were happy with that even though it kind of went too far and then uh Ryan goes back to House Atlantic and has a conversation with God are you there God? It's me Will I'm Ryan yeah kind of like that where he he's just sort of questioning him and like why would you allow this to happen or why wouldn't you allow this to happen? Like what's your deal? Like and guess what?

SPEAKER_01 32:50

I'm I'm the God now basically look at me I am the god now um so what I was I I I do want to talk about this in depth but I want to wind it back just a second to the uh the the the drinks the the alcoholic refreshments being sprayed on the people it turns out the guns of summer are just super soaker super soakers filled with four loco plus soco there one thing that I I didn't mention also which I think was important in the chapter was at the beginning of the chapter we're back with Lenny and Pearl and they're having grieving in their own ways I'm sure the loss of a child is devastating and it can affect both of them differently but uh Pearl's kind of shut down but when she turns back on again briefly she basically decides that Ryan has to pay and that they want they have to kill him or he has to die.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

And I think that kind of is setting the seeds for the future.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

It yeah she literally says Wilhelm Ryan has to die for someone for us to be a family again. I don't blame her. She's she's a grieving mother she's going through some real tough shit. Yeah but but that that definitely set the stage for putting these characters um at odds with each other to relatively normal folk very intelligent scientists but you know normal people on the surface living daily lives are put at odds with this horrible tyrannical government who killed their son. Really fucking sad story right off the bat. I mean it it only gets sadder. Okay one important thing that I think we skipped over a little bit here is in the chapter of Guns of Summer the brief scene in the greenhouse with Pearl uh she's working on a new creature and that creature is in fact a dragonfly that she has grafted a stinger onto and she calls it a syringe syringa dragonfly that's important put a pin in that uh what what's what's your section file this away for later if you know Kohe's artwork or imagery at all especially related to second stage turbine blade you know dragonflies are a big part of their branding and that's kind of the origin of the dragonflies it's a a creature genetically modified creature that Pearl makes just because she could she was curious she wanted to see if she could craft a stinger on it and she thought maybe we could use it for like practical or medicinal purposes little does she know it will bring about the destruction of the world but it's a little bit like the scientist guy in South Park who just puts four asses on a monkey you know like why not why not that's so uh before we get into the lyrics uh now we'll we'll talk a little bit about the the music of this song like I said at the top of this my take on this song initially was that this is a very disjointed and kind of odd song structurally and just the parts are so wildly different and you know when you're learning how to write songs or trying to write you know big songs or hit songs or whatever this is just not the way you would do it but that never once that never that that that never deterred me from loving the song this was one of my favorite songs from the record from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

I think I love this song. Because I'm a drummer and this is the most Chris Penny like we talked about earlier also on the record where he just kind of goes the craziest on this song it was just very impressive uh to hear and then you know it's it's kind of got the classic Koheed kind of hooks where it's like the lyrics are like kind of wild and crazy or like not the most obvious but like when you sing them they sound like a a chorus they sound like a hook and crazy guitar solo in the middle but this also does have the elements of sort of industrial synth and things which I guess is the Atticus influence and I think Claudio just sort of expanding his musical horizons a little bit but uh do you have any you have any takes on the music before we dive into the lyrics no I mean I I think uh the guitars in this song are fucking wild.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

The intro like yes everyone talks about the drumming of the song and how crazy it is but the rhythm guitar parts in this song are absolutely insane in the verses specifically right off the bat intro to verse it's just fucking wacky like just it's insane how fast and how technical these guys are and they just whip it out like no one's business.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

But yeah they they actually did perform this live during the year of the Black Rainbow tour back in until they've done eleven. Yeah maybe we'll see them do it again who knows yeah I hope so me too I'd love to hear Josh's take on it but um let's dive into the lyrics the first verse chance keep it I don't need your jokes I'm better off without the misunderstanding if I'm displeasing then leave me the reason to all our worth would I truly care if we truly mean nothing? Oh have we been fed crazy or will the curtains save me from my final pun? I have a hot take on this but it also feels very sort of literal to the Joseph situation.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah absolutely it feels literal to the Joseph it to me that that perspective feels like like like Joseph's perspective but also reflective of the populace of Heaven's fence feeling like if they're worthless then just fucking kill me now. What are we even doing here a little bit. But what's your hot take?

SPEAKER_02 38:48

So I have no evidence to support this this is just me reading the tea leaves or trying to trying to come up with something that might be there which may or may not be there. But Claudio has stated that a lot of the music they write comes from his own life first and foremost and then he writes the lore around it. So based on the timing of this album coming out in 2010, I feel like there might be a little bit of Josh in here. A little bit about Josh. Interesting if this is my last chance keep it I don't need your jokes. You know he he left kind of in a tragic way being addicted to heroin and not being able to be in the band and be responsible. I'm better off without this misunderstanding. If I'm displeasing then leave me the reasons all are worth what I truly care if we truly mean nothing like there's a there's a a framing of all that that I could see about Josh's departure and the where the band was at that time being as basically as famous as they were uh ever were and battling with that internally like how do you move on without one of your your key guys who just sort of said fuck it and checked out.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah I mean I think that's a very valid take on on the lyrics. I mean it certainly could make sense of what they're going through at the time. My personal take on like what he's writing about in real life here is maybe a bit more general. It feels so Koheed is has more than once done songs that are kind of like fuck you've to the music industry. I think maybe to the people that don't understand them. I even think the broken's kind of like that. I think if I am displeasing then leave me would I truly care if we mean nothing I think to to me that is also kind of existential. I think he's looking kind of inward you know at this point they're almost 10 years into this this project and gone through a lot of hurdles changing a band members, changing producers and record companies and things like that. And he referred to um I mean he he even referred to this time as being challenging. He felt like he'd hit a hit a wall. So that's sort of my interpretation but it could be a mix of both of those things.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

I mean your your your thought about Josh is a totally valid they're not far off from each other sonically I think like there's there's a lot of stuff they both they both get very similar kind of angry spiteful themes. So the the next section is I'm guess we're call we'll call it the pre-chorus and the music in my mind changes wildly like changes the tempo almost and just the feeling of the song lyrics for that no one will save us you think that somebody cares while the water is rising up let the cleansing begin.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Mother will they ever thank you instead we hide behind these foolish lies ambitions have told us otherwise it's a lot it's a lot in a pre chorus Claudio Yeah which is a continuing trend of his again I I think the no one will save us you think that somebody cares while the water is rising up that's the hopelessness of the populace of of Heaven's fence being murdered and oppressed under this brutal pointless mage war that has nothing to do with them. They're just kind of pawns in this scheme. But uh there the lyric let the cleansing begin is directly referenced from the text. Did you catch that when you read the chapter? Oh yes yes uh yeah when when they shoot four loco at the at the at the the parade patrons Ryan says let the cleansing begin before he fires off the hoses of the delicious alcoholic beverage. But I think that in a much darker more cynical sense it's like I'm gonna cleanse any you know dissent in the ranks everyone who opposes my room my rule will be eradicated we're gonna cleanse you with the guns of summer yeah and to follow our other narrative I think it's a little bit more of a stretch but no one will save us.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

He could be talking about the band and the changing of the situation and how they are sort of battling with fame and like how to stay relevant and like do people really care? Does anybody care? And then let the cleansing begin the new the new band the new uh producers the new record labels as you mentioned I think there's there's something there in that version or that uh pre-course also out with the old in with the new yeah I think that's that's that's again very perfectly valid uh take on that chorus

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Cold ass winter. Is that your missher lyric?

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Yeah, that's uh misered lyric of the week. No, uh so uh actually it's cold as winter's guns of summer, point and watch them run, summer's will and debris in their sun. If this is your last chance, will you give up? In my mind, I can hear all those words when I'm reading it on the text, but I don't hear all those words necessarily when I'm listening to it in my mind, because it's kind of all very fast. And again, the uh the feeling of the song in my mind changes kind of radically from the verse to the pre-chorus to the chorus. It's maybe not as jarring of a change from the pre-chorus to the chorus, but it's it's definitely a change.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Yeah, it's it's interesting. I think it is fast, but Claudio strings out those vowels so long, so it's it's rah san. Like, I don't know. I it's so distinctive in my head the way he sings these. But I mean it's a very vivid imagery, and to me, I think this is cold as winter, is the is you know, the life fleeting from Joseph's body or any other people who are killed in in this you know senseless conflict. Guns of Summer, it's pretty self-explanatory. I mean, I I I it didn't explicitly state it, but it feels like this must be a really hot day on Apathy Prime.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

It's probably, you know, like well, the fact that he would take the hose out and start spraying people implies that it was hot and that this is gonna be a nice treat for you.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah. I feel like he could have he could have elaborated on that. It just feels like a missed opportunity to talk about the squelching heat. Maybe he says it a little bit. Like there's it's feels like in the when Joseph's dying, he smells a lot of bodies like stinking in the heat. So I think that's that's right there. That's in my mind. Yeah. Um, Summers, Will and Debris and their son. I think that's actually literal. Uh literal bullet shrapnel in Joseph's body broken by the violence of the day. Maybe he is the debris left behind, as are the other victims. Yeah. I don't I don't know what that's about in in in Claudio's life, real life. So I don't know if you have a guess on that or if you just want to go to the next part.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

No, like some stuff is just the text, I think. But anyway, then the the next verse, verse two. In our turning toward the new and disregarding in these old ways, will we gain some truth or suffer again? Allow it as it breaks and showers our soul. Rain down fire, burn us all.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

So I think that is um I think that's two things, in a way. I think it's both a challenge from the populace of Heaven's Fence to Ryan and and the mages, but it's also a direct challenge from Ryan to God.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

He actually he says rain down fire and burn us all in a later chapter, in a dr and he's kind of taunting God. I forget what chapter it's in, but it's it's it's later on the book he he he says that, and that's that's Wilhelm Ryan.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Alright, well, so then the next part is another prequorus, and it's pretty much the same lyrics, other than the very last line, instead of ambitions have told us otherwise, it says magicians have told us otherwise. And is that uh is that a mage thing? What is that?

SPEAKER_01 47:47

I think it's again talking about God. God has or Ryan describes God as a magician, like invisible sky magician, like ooh, I'm you know, big powerful sky magician, I'm scared of you. So I I think that's directly Ryan taunting God again, too. So I have um actually let's finish the lyrics and then I have kind of a meta-textual analysis of this. Not quite no anyway, I'll I'll save it, but I want to bring that back up in a second.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Okay, and then after the pre-chorus is again pretty much straight up chorus, and then it goes into kind of this transition interlude part that it says there are lyrics too. I don't recall how they sound, but it says the lyrics are there is only one judge, it is, it is, it is yourself. Are you familiar with that?

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Uh, I never actually realized that's what he's saying, but you can hear Claudio singing that now that I can hear it in my head, very muffled. There's a lot of it's like it's kind of like he's singing it into the pickups of his guitar. It's like super muffled and distorted, like I guess that's what he's saying. That sounds about right.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Then what are the lyrics again? There is only one judge. It is, it is, it is yourself.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Okay, that feels again like Ryan again kind of defying judgment from um from the higher power.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Yeah, I could see that. Uh, and then after that little sort of interlude section is the guitar solo, which is a ripping guitar solo. That is kind of in the same style musically, I think, as the chorus, but it it picks up the tempo or not, it like it goes from like halftime to sort of a full time feel. And the guitar solo, I think, is is pretty sick.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Yeah. Did you did you watch uh do you remember from the DVD making of how he made some of the sounds in that guitar solo?

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Was it the the thing with the drill?

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah, he took a drill and like he didn't like drill the guitar, but he like the side of the drill which was spinning, he like rubbed that against the the strings while he was playing and got this crazy weird distorted sound.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Yeah. I mean that's that's some kind of innovative innovative shit. Gets you some weird noises.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah, and this song is full of weird noises.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Yeah, but people go nuts in the studio with that kind of stuff sometimes, and it's it's cool to see Claudio's brain process on stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

If they ever do play Guns of Summer, they better bring out that drill.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Bust out the drill. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Note to Claudio. Yeah. I I fullheartedly agree. Uh after the guitar solo, it goes back into the chorus. It's not a double chorus per se, but it ends with this is your last chance, will you? This is your last chance, and then it kind of goes into extended chorus. Yeah, it's like an like an outro chorus. But it's like in the background, kind of cold as Winter's guns. And then the main vocal is, Oh, this is your last chance, will you give? And it kind of goes through that in the cold part. And yeah, it kind of ends. It ends very abruptly. This is your last chance, will you? Boom.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yeah, I like it. Very tight and concise ending to to that song. Uh set in the stage for the powerhouse single that is next.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Yeah, well, and for for all the the craziness of the song, and including the the parts and Koheed's reputation for being a band that writes really long, epic songs, they don't really write that many of them. I suppose they write more than your average band, but like this song is is not obscenely long by any means. I don't know that it's like hip pop long, but it's it's only like four and a half minutes or something like that. It's not even five minutes. Yeah, but it's sure wild. It's definitely definitely wild. But that's I mean, that pretty much breaks it down. My file this away for later. You've mentioned a couple through this whole pod, but I would say mine as a person who has not read on and doesn't know the full lore, there just seemed to be something about Wilhelm Ryan and his teleportation ability that I feel like uh is gonna come back around again at some point uh in some capacity. I know I know a little bit like of the broad strokes of the greater storyline, but I don't know the details like I'm learning here now. But that that just feels a little like like something important to remember.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Uh yeah, absolutely. Any of Ryan's crazy powers I think are are d worth worthy of taking note of to remember what he can and can't do. Interesting, he doesn't really atomize a lot of other people. Oh, he does get never mind. Uh spoiler for later. So my commentary about my my analyzation of this, now this is knowing this might come off as I guess as a mild spoiler to some, but I think if anyone has done any research on the history of or the lore behind the Amory Wars, you can pretty quickly figure out, especially being background in one of the most popular albums. At some point in the story, specifically chapter four, the narrative splits between the perspectives of the fictional universe that we've been reading about this whole time, and then getting into a much more meta-textual sense where we meet the writer behind the story.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

When you say chapter four, you mean the fourth the fourth story. Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Okay from Fear Through the Eyes of Madness. But the of course, the writer in real life, his name is Claudio Sanchez, the front man of Koheed and writer of all these books. But in the sort of meta-textual layer of the Amory Wars, his name is actually Writer, R-Y-D-E-R. But he is the writer, W-R-I-T-E-R, of everything that we have read and learned about so far. Uh essentially all of the Emery Wars exists in his mind. Now, writer absolutely is, I believe, meant to be this universe's version of God. Now, God is a person in this chapter of the Emery Wars that gets referenced a lot, but we don't really it's it never becomes clear or relevant that God is an actual person who's off his meds and fucking having a shit day in real life. Um yeah, it's a rough one. And I honestly think, so my meta-textual anal analysis of these opening chapters is Guns of Summer, the chaos of this song and the vibe of this section of the story, and just the bonker shit that happens really quickly, is almost like Claudio Sanchez, the real writer, kind of losing control of the story pretty early on, and he literally writes a character in the form of Wilhelm Ryan to call him out, to challenge himself. And so this is almost the beginning of the writer dueling with the characters in the story. And as we learn in the next chapter, spoiler alert, which is called The Black Rainbow, that maybe the writer has some mixed feelings about what he's doing here. So I'll just leave it at that. There's there's more to come in the meta-textual analysis, and again, this only really makes sense when you read the whole thing, but just I think it's interesting to it's interesting context for the for the story. Looking back on it now, as a person who's read the whole chronology now, and I think a lot of Koheed fans probably have, but it's nice to go back and and read these now and say, oh, this is what they're kind of doing here, this is what they're setting up. That's cool, all the way back in 2010.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Yeah. So a little bit of a teaser there. Can you tell me off the top of your head, or maybe you just know in general, uh, what chapters for any listeners who want to play along with us, what chapters are covered in the next song? The next song, of course, is Here We Are Juggernaut. And we touched on it briefly that the uh the first chapter of the the novel is actually maybe kind of coincides with this song, but are there any other chapters that listeners should should brush up on before the next episode?

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Yeah, I mean if you're if you're reading along with us, chapters six through probably uh at least seven, but maybe eight. So I will say that the events of Here We Are Juggernaut and Farr sort of intersect a little bit, and maybe even Farr comes first. I actually think that Far describes some some of what we've already read so far is applicable to the song Far and the the grief of the Hohenbergers dealing with the loss of their son. But Here We Are Juggernaut specifically is gonna cover the next few chapters, which spoiler alert, feature the creation of articular characters, Cohead and Cambria and uh what they're set out to do. So I would say at least chapters six through eight, maybe chapters six through nine. The farther along you read the better.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Okay, but we we are just gonna cover Juggernaut next time. We're gonna try to take this track by track. It's not necessarily in linear order, we're taking it in album order. Uh so yeah, but let's say six through eight, six through nine, whatever. Next couple chapters, and maybe brush up on that first chapter again. But yeah, so next one, here we are, juggernaut. We'll check it out in a couple weeks. Okay, for now, I guess uh we're signing off.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Alright, sounds good. Thanks so much.