SPEAKER_04 0:00

How in the world finds a power it'll be a place for the five.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

That's uh that's later chapters.

SPEAKER_04 0:09

That's that's hey y'all, so we recorded this episode a couple of weeks ago, and since then we got to actually attend the Never Ender Festival in LA, and I went to Red Rocks in Colorado, and I thought it would be nice to slide this in to the top of this episode, Pearl of the Stars, and just talk about it real quick. First, uh, I just want to talk about Red Rocks, and Red Rocks is amazing. It's a beautiful venue. The weather was absolutely fantastic, and the band was just like totally, totally on point. And it was like kind of a magical evening. And I really felt like it was like performance level worthy of of a show. Like it seemed like the kind of thing they would be filming for a DVD or for a documentary. I have no evidence or no reason to believe that that actually happened, but that's just like the the level of performance that they brought to Red Rocks. And the fans were all all there and excited. I talked to a lot of people there. I met a lot of people from out of Colorado, from all over the country, who came out to Red Rocks for that festival or for that show, and it was really cool seeing the environment and the uh the people there. And then fast forward to the weekend, flew out to LA and met Zach out there, and we not only went to the festival, but we also went to the pre-festival party with the Never Enders, our friends in the Never Enders. You heard Larry on here a few weeks ago, and they did second stage in full and a bunch of other songs that Zach and I did not stay for because we're old men and we tapped out. And but I just wanted to talk a little bit about that. We actually we we met we met some listeners too out there, which is amazing. We didn't even know we had those. And we met some, and that was pretty cool. But uh, Zach, just give me your impressions of the the festival and the the pre-show party and uh everything.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Well, that's a lot to dive into in one summary. The festival was so much fun, it was uh hot as hell, and anyone who was there can attest to that. It was about a hundred degrees both days, which I think is pretty uncommon for this time of year in LA. But uh nevertheless.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Fucking October.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, it was it was tons of fun. The hearing the Afterman live from front to back was uh incredible, and I'm really glad I got to have that experience. I sadly did not get to go to Red Rocks with you, but I got to make up for it at the festival. And also the Never Enders set, getting to hear them play second stage was really cool. Uh, there's something about seeing a smaller band at a smaller room playing that record that feels almost like what it could have been like seeing Koheed back in like the early days when that record came out. I don't know. It was just something kind of just just kind of eerie. And Devin, the singer of one of the many Canon Devons to the Kohee universe, uh, Devin Hatcher, the singer of the Never Enders, you know, he sounds a lot like young Claudio. He's got that grit, he's got that tone, but it's got that that inflection too.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

He's also got like the the curly hair look too going. Like the the darker complexion. Like he's it's weird, it's a little bit eerie.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

And uh and then Larry's got the the long hair, kind of like Travis used to have too. So yeah, I mean it's it is weird. It's like you could have put these guys in that someone who can music video. You didn't you didn't need to hire uh those actors.

SPEAKER_04 3:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Um well uh I I know you didn't it was really neat.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

You didn't get to go to Red Rocks, and I I got to go to both. And I just I like I said about the the Red Rocks, it it felt really like pro-performance level, like they were putting on a performance for us at the festival. To me, it felt like they were having more fun. Almost like a pool deck show on the the cruise where they were just kind of a little more playful and like they still performed at a high, high level. Like it wasn't like they they they mailed it in. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm saying like they felt loose and they felt fun, and it was just it was interesting seeing them in both both lights, both fashions.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yeah. Well, uh again, I can only attest to the one that I saw, but I'll I'll take your your word for it. I did see some videos, so that sounds accurate. Uh, some other notable performances from that weekend, Held, first California show, first festival show. That was really neat. And I know you got to meet and talk to Josh afterward when they were um signing uh merch. I had to go stake my claim at the Prize Fighter Inferno set because they were starting right at the same time that Held was signing autographs. But you want to talk about meeting Josh and talking to them about that?

SPEAKER_04 5:03

I had my priorities straight. You you did not.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Oh no, I had my priorities straight. I got to see Prize Fighter, and that was awesome.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

I got to see the second half, but no, I I Josh is my favorite drummer, and I really you know I've met him before, but I wanted to go talk to him again, and it was really cool. And the guys in Held were all super nice. They all knew that we were all basically there and because not not not because they're because of Josh per se, but I think that was a big draw for that that line was all people wanted to say hi to Josh. Held is a great band, and I think people would like them regardless, but having Josh in the band gives them auto cohed fans, I think, in my mind. But anyway, uh yeah, I saw I went and I talked to Josh and he was really worn out after the uh Afterman shows, and I kind of made a joke. It wasn't really a joke, but I I told him after this the show in Red Rocks, I was like, you guys seemed like really exhausted, like you really just gave everything you had. And he told me, he's like, you know what, dude, like we were, but like I've never been more tired after a show ever than after the festival show last night. And I was like, really? He's like, when when we got to Welcome Home, I could barely lift my arms up. And he's like, by the end of that song, it was just like it was so rough. And and then I said to him, I was like, dude, I could tell, like, I could tell that you weren't going that hard in your big finale. And then my wife chimes in, she's like, That was rude. And and then Josh looks at her and says, No, no, no, it's not rude, it's real. And I I really appreciated that from him because that's as a drummer, like I know the feeling. Like, I don't know that I've ever worn myself out to the point where I couldn't lift my arms, and he clearly could lift his arms because he did do a big ending, but it was just not the same as like a standard hour and a half co-each show because those guys went for two hours, and the afterman records are very rhythmic, and the drums are very like it's not like just playing a straight beat through any of those songs. There's all kinds of parts, the structures are wild and crazy, and it actually got me thinking about what we're doing now with Year the Black Rainbow. The structures in Near the Black Rainbow are mostly pretty standard structures so far. We haven't really had any crazy, there's not like any seven or eight minute songs with all kinds of parts switching back and forth. And like Afterman and a lot of the OG Koheed songs, there's just a lot of parts, and they're not always in the the the quote unquote normal order.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah, it was very much seeing these guys uh really put to the test and performing, you know, at the height of their their musicality. Some other sets I I touched on just a minute ago, but Prize Fighter and said I thought was really cool. We got an unreleased Prize Fighter song, Never Before Heard. There's some people that caught video of it and put it on Reddit and YouTube, so it's pretty easy to find out there right now. But that was a really special treat to get. And at the end of that set, I was so uh touched. So, Claudio, for those who don't know, Claudio and Chandra have been performing all the live prize fighter things together, and it seems like Chandra is a lot more involved with that project than uh she was originally. I don't think she was originally involved at all during the recording of My Brother's Blood Machine, which by the way, celebrating 20 years this month, so that's pretty cool. Came out on Halloween in 2006, and they mentioned that at the at the festival. Uh but at the very end of the set, they were playing, I want to say it was a Death in the Family, named after a great Batman comic, by the way. Uh, and they were letting this beat right out, and Claudio's doing this kind of bluesy solo over it. And at one point, the beat's still going, but he takes his guitar off and walks over to Chandra and he drapes his guitar around her. And at first she looks at him like, What the hell are you doing? I don't play guitar. And then he he very like sensorly gets behind her, wraps his arms around her, and then he proceeds to play guitar while embracing her, and the crowd went nuts. And while he was doing that, they were also beckoning to Atlas, their son, who was on the side of the stage, who looked uh very nervous. Uh, but they they kept trying to coax him to get him to come out, and eventually he did, and he was met, of course, with another roaring cheer from the audience. It's everyone, you know, all those all the Koheat fans and the prize fighter fans certainly love Atlas, but uh it was the sweetest moment. He came on stage, and the three of them engrosed uh embraced each other in this big like three-way group family hug. Claudio still playing guitar the entire time. And you could tell it was just this really sweet, cathartic moment for them uh at the end of these several like five straight months of non-stop touring with Shinedown and solo headlining tours. And it it must have been such a you know a big like relieving moment for them as a family. But you know, that that that I think speaks to their lives is like it their their lives are put on full display for their fans, you know, Koheed and Claudio, they have such you know invested fans that are there for everything. And so, you know, everything they do that's that is public, like their marriage and they're raising their kids, not everything, but so much of their life is is is public and it's you know it's kind of displayed transparently for us. And I think that's just a really it's a really you know unique part of of that their dynamic that I just feel like is maybe not uh observed or or appreciated as much.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Yeah, it's another element of this band feeling more like people you know or friends or family than just a band you listen to. So also I got to meet Atlas really quickly.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Oh, I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

Yeah, yeah. I I I wanted to go say hi to him, and he gave me a flyer for the shoe show. Shout out the shoe show, a new song out now. Uh uh, but he was really cool. He it was just a real quick interaction, and he was really nice. And uh, everyone go support the next generation of Koheat. Uh but also one more thing I wanted to mention. You talked about how hard they've been touring. They're still, they're not done yet. They're going to Europe. And the other thing I talked to Josh, I didn't talk to him about this, but the person in front of me did, but Josh confirmed for sure it's gonna be a long time before you get another Koheat headliner in North America. I don't know what that means. He didn't elaborate. I don't know if they're taking a year off, if they're just gonna do festival dates next year, or maybe they're gonna do another supporting tour with somebody. But uh if you missed out, sucks for you.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

I I I bet that it's not gonna be more than a year, year and a half at most. I bet by summer of 28 they'll be back in full swing. Because they'll surely have a new record up by that time. I'm if I'm imagining if anything, maybe Claudia is working on another prize fighter record. Maybe Travis is working on Ellis Doons, maybe Held will do some more stuff, who knows? But I don't know. That was also paired with you know some some some melancholy news by the other headliner of Never Ender Festival, which is Circa Survive. Um, after I don't think they said it at Never Ender Festival itself, but the next day they played another festival, and they basically said, This may be the last time we play together, we don't know if we will again. And that certainly is not what fans wanted to hear, but that that band has gone through a lot of tumultuous kind of up and downs too with various commitment of the band members. But that was you you didn't stay for Circa, but that was a really incredible set by Don't throw me under the bus. You threw us both under the bus by admitting we didn't stay for the end of Never Enders, which I feel bad about, but it was after midnight and we're old. But that was really neat to see Sirka with Koheed. It really brought me back to when you know, going back to Year of the Black Rainbow, when this record came out in 2010, I was still in high school, which by the way, I got to visit my old high school during this trip down there too, which is kind of fun and kind of nostalgic. But it reminded me of my friend Ben, who was really into Circa Survive, and I was really into Koheed, and both these bands put out two albums right around the same time. They were like a week apart. I think it was Blue Sky Noise came out and like April 6th, and then Koheed's album came out on April 13th or something like that. But it was it was very close together, and my friend Ben and I we traded CDs, and that was kind of how I got into Circa. And then now hearing that 16 years later, uh hearing songs not just from that record, but from their whole discography. Anthony obviously is an incredible singer and performer, but the whole band was in was in great form, and it was so it was such a treat to get to see them play at this festival. So I hope it's not the last time, but who knows? I know this isn't a circa podcast, but I felt it was relevant to talk about them because they're the co-headliner of this festival.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

Yeah, they'll be on the cruise next year, just watch. Anyway, that's enough of that. Let's get into the episode. Here you go. Back to the regularly scheduled programming Pearl of the Stars.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Peace.

SPEAKER_04 13:53

Welcome everyone to the Kohheed Chronicles. This is episode eight, Pearl of the Stars. My name is Joel. This is my brother Zach.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Hello.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

And we are the hosts of the Koheed Chronicles. This podcast is going through every Koheed and Camria song in lore order, breaking down the lore, the story, and the music behind each track. And we are here to talk about Pearl of the Stars. Zach, do you have any preconceived sort of thoughts about Pearl of the Stars?

SPEAKER_00 14:25

This song fucking slaps.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

Is that what it does?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Uh yeah. I mean, I think Mike Todd's bass part certainly does. Um yeah, I love this song, man. I've always loved this song since I first heard it. I I can't wait to talk about the music, but there's a and I also love the story behind this song too. It's one of my favorite chapters in the book, so I'm just really excited to dive into it.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Yeah, before we do that, I I I agree. I read this book a long time ago in 2010 when it came out, and this was a chapter that that stuck out that I remembered the whole way through. It's very very memorable for lack of a better term.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah, 100%. It it's the one that I always think of like uh it's the most memorable chapter in the whole book to me. And it's you know, it's very short, but it has one of the most compelling emotional arcs and twists in it, too. And so uh yeah, I'm excited to to explore that.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

All right, so Pearl of the Stars. It's track nine from Here the Black Rainbow. This is the same lineup that they've had this whole record, believe it or not. Uh Chris Penny on drums, Mike Todd on bass, plus Claude and Trav, our two favorite guitar players. And this song is the only other song on the record that's credited to Claudio and Atticus Ross as the writers. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

I did know that, and that's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 15:48

It is interesting. I I also found out today off off the the record that Atticus Ross is now officially the only other member of Nine Inch Nails.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Oh, really? I did not know that. That's uh that's news to me.

SPEAKER_04 16:02

I didn't know that either. Him and Trent Reznor started collaborating together, and now they actually are in a band together. That's as of 2016, that was. Uh anyway, I did learn this also, that this song, similar to Far, also began as a Prize Fighter Inferno idea.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

I did not know that. That's cool. I mean it makes perfect sense when you when you when you think about it in context now, but yeah, wow, okay. Well you you showed me something new about this song already, and I've been loving this song for 16 years now.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

Yeah, here's uh here's a quote from Claudio about that particular element. He says, quote, I mean, to be completely honest, songs like Pearl of the Stars and Far were originally inferno tunes, you know? But because you do both things, you find that some things fit in better places.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. Well, I'm very glad that he brought it to this record because I think it it sits in such a perfect place on the set or on the set list, on the track list. Uh it it's a perfect like kind of emotional di but also swell at the same time. I don't know if that makes sense. And it's really like the the transition into the final act of the record. You get this this you know very soft, uh, very sad emotional ballad before things get just like really heavy, really crazy in the next uh next couple songs.

SPEAKER_04 17:27

Yeah, you said it. I I I had written down here that it's a ballad. It's a very beautiful song sitting neatly sort of near the end of the record, but it does sort of act as a prelude to the final sort of arc of the record. Uh lyrically and thematically, it's definitely a lot of emotion. And you could read it, read through the tone of the text, or you can read it through what Claudio says the song is about, also. Here's a a quote, actually, in regards to that from Claudio. It says, quote, you know, after getting married, I was just kind of contemplating like, what would life be like without her? Yeah, she's my secret weapon. End quote.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Claudio thinks about death a lot. That's like that's that's something his mind goes back to all the time is like, what would life be like without my family? What would my family's life be like without me? He's very introspective. He seems like he's worried about these things a lot.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

Does it have to be about death? Like, could it just be like maybe she leaves him?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Well, I that sure, that that could be part of it too. Uh, but I should I should say that he thinks about loss.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

He seems uh, I mean, quite an emotional lad.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, and he's he's in touch with his emotions, and we're all better off for it because we get amazing music from it. But yeah, it from the I'm looking at this from the context of the new record, Vaxxus 3, where all the interviews talked about he was like, Yeah, I just kind of thought, like, what would my families be like if I died? It's a normal thought. I mean, I mean, sure. Yeah, I mean, it's it's healthy to think about the city.

SPEAKER_04 18:56

Who would take care of my dogs if I died?

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Well, Aaron would probably take really good care of your dogs, at least I hope she would. But uh or you know, Christian Seymour would. Shout out Christian, who for sure listens to this podcast. I know we're probably his favorite podcast on the internet. If he actually does listen to this, it'd be a miracle. But yeah, Claudio definitely has these these uh emotional contemplative moments in his life where he's always thinking about these things. So uh hey, we get some amazing music out of it. So I I don't mind the introspection. I just sometimes he says these things and I'm like, Claudio, are you okay?

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Is it is it contemplative or contemplative?

SPEAKER_00 19:34

I thought it was contemplative, but I could be wrong. I mean, tomato, tomato, does it make a difference?

SPEAKER_04 19:40

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Mayo Mayo?

SPEAKER_04 19:42

Yeah, exactly. See, look, you you get it. Uh I have two quotes from reviews here. They're not really quotes, I guess just excerpts from reviews. I don't really know if these are like credited places, though, so I take it take it as they are. But uh from quote Invisible Oranges, they did a catalog deep dive on Koheed, and this particular song came up in this excerpt. This is a cold and dark record, especially when juxtaposed with the relative light-heartedness of the color before the sun in the second stage turbine blade. But it's also the home of Pearl of the Stars, one of the band's gentlest, sweetest, and most melancholic songs across their entire catalogue. Even in the midst of their rage, Cohede and Cambria retain the clarity of mind to find these precious moments of contemplative contemplative stillness. End quote. So that that was very positive, and and it sort of echoes some of our sentiments about this song.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah, it's it's interesting. They call uh second stage lighthearted, but uh Yeah, I thought I thought that too.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

It's not when I when I think lighthearted, I don't feel like, oh, you know, let me listen to something easy today and put on second stage.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

It's like maybe the dark like thematically, it might be the darkest chapter of the story, but whatever.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Little everything evil, you know, to to just calm the nerves.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Yeah. Delirium trigger. Uh but yeah, I I I I would agree for the most part with that with that review. You have another one?

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Yes. This one. It's gonna kinda got a funny tale at the end of it. But anyway, this is from everythingisnoise.net. They did a guide to coheed music. And here's the excerpt. Pearl of the Stars is wildly emotional and my favorite coheed ballad ever. The hook is poetic, as if written for someone that Claudio has known for years and years. It feels so personal, like looking at the diary entry not meant for public consumption, or letter not meant to be sent. It's moments like this that make middling songs like made out of nothing, all that I am, and in the flame of error tolerable. Wow. I was like, oh, that's a great review, and then they fucking shot down. Dang, right there at the end.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

That's the that's the tough part about loving Koheed, man, is is I know you and I We love all the Kohed songs.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

It's not tough for me.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

But what what I mean is is is that like then you hear other people that are like, oh, I love this song, but I hate this song. And it's like, well, how can you hate that song? It's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

Plus, those those two songs are not that similar. And they they're they're also like totally Yeah, not middle. Like, if anything, we we had this sentiment a little bit with uh Made Out of Nothing that we heard last week when people were sort of saying it was a little bit mid or like it's it's not that exciting of a song in some of the reviews, but in the form of error we'll get to that one soon.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

But but the literal climax of the record.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

Yeah. So everything is noise.net. You maybe need to rethink that review.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

When so did that review come out in 2010? When like when the album was released?

SPEAKER_04 22:52

No, no, no. Well, I don't remember. I don't have the year written down here, but both of these two reviews I found were like more like retrospective, like looking at the catalog reviews.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Okay. I so there was a review. So there was a review that stuck out to me in memory of actually before the album came out. Someone reviewed the the album when it leaked. I think it leaked about a month prior to its official release. Any youngins these days, I don't know if you know this, but albums used to leak on the internet before they were officially released, and diehard fans would scramble to get bootleg copies of them. And I had already purchased the actually, I shouldn't say I'd already purchased the record because I was very young at this time, but I'm pretty sure you purchased this record for me either for Christmas or for my birthday. But like you pre-ordered it for me. Anyway, there was a copy that was already paid for for me, and uh I couldn't wait, so I downloaded a bootleg copy. And I'm sorry, Claudio, don't uh don't come for me. But there was a review that came out around this time, and it was the first thing I I actually read about the record before I could even listen to it is like I read some guy's review that he posted on Cobalt and Calcium, uh the old fan forum, and he wrote very stream of consciousness review, like it was like a it was like an initial reaction to everything, and one of the things he said was like, Wow, the vocals on this verse are so deep. Is this Claudio's dad? And I this is like before I had heard the song, so like my head was like, Oh my god, Claudio's dad's on this song. And of course, it's not Claudio's dad, he just sings in a slightly lower register than he normally does for this song. But I thought, like, I I don't know, I had filed that away, I'd I'd completely forgotten about it for many years, and it wasn't until last year that I was hanging with my friends in Septsee. Uh, shout out Septici, post-hard core group from Oakland. I played guitar with them last year at a live show. And maybe I will again if they play any more live shows. But all big Koheed fans, very coheed inspired. I loved playing with those guys because they loved Koheed, among other reasons. But they said some they were talking, like I wasn't involved in the conversation. I was it was tangential, but I heard them one of them say, like, is that Claudio's dad? And they're like, wait, where'd you hear that? Like, oh, it's on this Cobalt and Calcium forum from 15 years ago. I was like, What? Wow. So we both had read the same thing, and both of those things, or they they stuck out to both of us, and I was like, wow, what a niche thing for people that were completely separate at the time to to take in. But no, not Claudio's dad, although he does have a nice sultry low voice in the uh in the the song. I was gonna bring that up later, but you were talking about reviews and it sparked my memory, so sorry for throwing it off.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Yeah, well that that's a wild story that you two had the same remembrance of a cobalt and calcium forum pose from 2010. Yeah. So before we get into the lore and the music of the song, I have a couple of quotes on the actual recording of the song. This is from an interview with Claudio from New Zealand Rock, which I think I quoted previously. But this says from Claudio, Well, if I have to pick a few tunes, I think I have to go with Pearl of the Stars or Far, or even Year of the Black Rainbow. I mean, we just really got a chance to explore another side of the band. End quote. And then this one is from one Chris Penny, drummer extraordinaire. He says, quote, when I got the tune from Claude, it was a different kind of vibe. It had a very dark kind of vibe. The lyrical content was just very, very touching to me. You know, doing that song, the way it came about, and we did like a lot of loops, orchestrated a lot of things on drums, and for me that was a lot of fun. End quote.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

That's cool. I uh I was listening to it just before we came on, as I normally do, and I was admiring the really cool, intricate, layered percussion in the song. There's a lot of really cool stuff going on uh rhythm-wise in this song.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Yeah, we'll get to that. But before we dive into your recap or even get into this song, I thought we could do a character deep dive because this song is, I would say, mainly about Pearl Hohlenberger, at least in name of the song, and the chapter in the book is is also Pearl of the Stars. And we don't have a lot of Pearl substance in the book or in the whole Amory Wars as a whole, I believe. I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, so it seems like this is a good good place to sort of spotlight on Pearl. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah, you're you're right. And uh just before we came on, I tried to look up and see if there was a Koheed wiki article about Pearl, and there is. It has one sentence in it. It says, Pearl Hohenberger is the wife of Dr. Leonard Hohenberger and creator of the Syringia Dragonfly in her greenhouse. Actually, I added in the word dragonfly. It didn't even say that. I just felt it was important for context. So that's how much information is available on the Koheed wiki about Pearl, which is shameful, honestly. Uh Pearl is a really, I think, compelling character. Uh, she's a focal point of this book. So many of the things in the story, in the Emery Wars in general, wouldn't happen if it wasn't for Pearl. She's more than just wife and mother. She's also a genius. She's a uh, you know, a renowned, uh, uh uh heaven's fenced renowned uh geneticist. She's working on like grafting different types of animals and like insects together, which sounds kind of mad science to see, but you know, she's she's painted at least as a very noble character who, you know, is is doing her scientific research for the betterment of mankind. Maybe not prize kind or mage kind, but mankind. But yeah, Pearl is um she's a very strong character and she goes through a lot. Uh, she, I think, has the most devastating journey. I mean, probably tied with Leonard for this entire record, but from the moment we meet Pearl, it it I feel bad because the first time we actually meet Pearl, she's upset. She's like flipping out at her husband because he was bullied by his own son to let him go to a protest that unfortunately ended in his death, which is awful. Like, what a horrible thing to go through. Uh, but Pearl is is seen as as you know, like outraged from like the the very beginning of this book. Uh she's she's painted in I don't want to say a negative light, but you know, she has these very aggressive emotions and just the way that she treats her husband after the fact when she's grieving and wounded is you know not very nice too. But she also we also see that she's very emotionally vulnerable. She does love her husband. She does obviously she loves her son more than anything in the world, but she has those moments of vulnerability where she kind of breaks down and and confesses to Leonard that she is, you know, is feeling so lost and helpless, and the only thing that's kind of keeping her going is her burning rage uh and desire for revenge against Wilhelm Ryan. So Pearl is is a very radicalized character in that way too. But it's interesting, you don't really get a lot from her perspective in this novel. It's always kind of things happening to Pearl. Sometimes she's reacting to things, but more more often than not, the focus on the Leonard or in the on the Hohenberger house is on Leonard. But this is the first chapter where we actually get Pearl's perspective, and oh god, is it heart-wrenching? It's just brut brutal chapter.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

Well, you touched on it a little bit, but my my thoughts, my questions for you, I suppose, on Pearl is does she love Leonard? Did she love Leonard before the tragedy happened? Because it it seems to me like both of them, I think I think Leonard loves Pearl, or at least the idea in his mind of Pearl, but they both seem to be off in their own worlds doing their own thing. And the portrayal we have of Pearl in this book, mostly, as you stated, is her kind of being angry and being grieving and like questioning her devotion and love to her family at at this time, you know. So I I just wonder, like, was this something that was there before the tragedy, and the tragedy just sort of s shined a spotlight on it? Or if the tragedy really was the catalyst to these feelings that we get from her in the book?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Yeah, it's it's hard to know because we never really see a happy Pearl in this book. Right. We we don't really get a version of Pearl that is, you know, content and and happy with her loving family. Uh we get the very beginning of the end of that dynamic. And it's it's tough to say. I think I don't know. I like to think that Pearl loves Leonard, or loved Leonard at least. And I think I think that she still does. I think she's grievously wounded by the uh things that happened to her. I mean, the loss of a child, uh obviously I've never had you and I've never had to experience that particular thing, but I can't imagine that could easily tear such an emotional rift through so many people. I mean, uh in real life and uh in fiction. You know, look at Han Solo and Princess Leia torn apart by the sun falling to the dark side. A little bit different, but you know, it it's just and they loved each other. Would you would you say that Han and Leia didn't, even though they they are not particularly close in The Force Awakens, they obviously had a love and a background, but we don't really get to see that with Pearl and Leonard. We get glimpses of it kind of in her like hallucination flash actually, sorry, it's not her flashback, it's Leonard's flashback in one of the following chapters where he's dreaming. He dreams that like he's like Pearl and and Joseph are alive and their family is happy and together again. So maybe that is from from just from Leonard's perspective now that I think about it. Tough to say. I I the optimistic side of me is gonna say that she does love him, and I think that there's just really complicated emotions coming off of that. You can love someone and also fucking hate their guts, too. Like it's possible to do both.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

It's like our relationship.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Just like our relationship, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

Oh man. Alright.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

So after after you killed my son, yeah, it was it was a different story.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

So Pearl is potentially a little more complicated than than we are aware of, but this chapter is heavy. So why don't you let's let's go to your segment, Zach's rapid recap, and set the stage to how we got to where we are to the beginning of this chapter.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Sorry, it's been uh been a couple weeks. Let me flip back and just see exactly what the last thing that happened was. Oh yeah. Okay, so we I mean actually, this is going back even farther because the last track we did was technically takes place chronologically after this one. But re we'll recap what we talked about already. But Mayo Defton Wolf came to the Hohenberger household and revealed to Leonard that he had kidnapped Pearl and that she was being held at an undisclosed location, and that her life was in great peril if Leonard did not cooperate with the demands of Wilhelm Ryan. And Ryan's demands were to create a virus called the Monstar Virus that has the potential to destroy all life on Heaven's Fence. And so that's it's it's brief, but those are the most important things, and I think that's all the context really need to set the stage for this chapter.

SPEAKER_04 35:05

Right. That's that's the broad strokes, and that's I think the importance of getting us into this chapter. So this this chapter it's pretty much from Pearl's perspective. It's the only chapter, I think, in the book that comes that way, and it's actually sort of dictated in the book as like journal entries or like diary entries, but it's like all in her mind. Obviously, she's she's not you'll see why. She's not writing this down, but it's basically takes place while Pearl is in captivity. She's been kidnapped by Wilhelm Ryan. She's hanging, suspended in this, as she describes as a glass coffin, which I think it has like an eye slit or something, so she can see out, and it's got some kind of tubes or some feeding apparatus, and I think it's it just has got a catheter in it too, so she can go to the bathroom. And she's she's in the dark in this like kind of metal room above a giant chasm, which you can't see the bottom of, and she's just in there, and she doesn't know when she wakes up, presumably, like how long she's been in there. They don't really describe like her being put into it or her like struggling to get into it. So presumably she was drugged or knocked out or something, and then she wakes up in this state, and she's kind of confused, and and she she's convinced at first that Wilhelm Ryan is gonna pay for this, that she is gonna maintain that he's not gonna break her, that her mental will is too strong, that Leonard's gonna come after him and and save her, whatever. And as the days go on in her journal, you can sort of start to feel her mental unraveling a bit. She describes visits from Wilhelm Ryan, and Wilhelm Ryan, for the first few visits, just tells her that he's sorry. And she's like, What the fuck do you mean you're sorry? Basically, like what are you what are you talking about? And they they have a little bit of a back and forth, and Wilhelm Ryan pretty much presents himself as mostly like very poised and like not emotional about it. He's just like trying to talk to her, and at a certain point she is convinced that he is trying to torture her, that he, you know, he's gonna try to get information from her, and he's like, What information do you have that I could possibly want? And like, what do you mean, torture? You're just you're just chilling, like you're just you're just hanging out, you know. Nobody's torturing anybody. You're just you know, we're having a conversation. Just hanging around. Uh literally. And so as as the days in her mind go go on, she's slowly starting to, again, mentally unravel. She starts blaming Leonard, and Wilhelm Ryan also sort of confirms this in a statement. He's like, Leonard's the one who should be here, not you, right? But because of circumstances out of your control, he he's not. You're here. And that's them's the brakes. And so she she continues to start to go down this sort of more negative path in her mind of well, it's fucking right, it's Leonard's fault, basically, and starts feeling really bad about it. And her journal entries go from day one until day 38 in her mind, and she's she's saying that she's counting down her heartbeats and like her breathing, and and that's how she knows that the days are passing in her mind. And let's see, in day 38, the final, the final day, in her conversation with Ryan references that she's been there for over a month, and Ryan looks at her like puzzlingly, and she's he's like, You've been here less than a day. You can count the the amount of time you've been here in hours, not in days or weeks. And that just blows Pearl's mind. It is the the big reveal, the big twist of the chapter, and it also sort of leaves it ambiguous to the reader, like, did it really only take hours, or has she been there as long as as she says she's been there? Because we know that Ryan is probably playing some mental gymnastics with her, like trying to fuck with her. And we also know that stuff takes time and we know what's going on with Leonard, and the stuff that we see with Leonard and the KBI and formulating this plan and everything. I don't know that that necessarily just took hours, but I I I don't know. So, like, I think I think in a nutshell, that's the chapter, right? And you can now pontificate on your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Yeah, absolutely. And as I as I was saying at the beginning of the podcast, and you were as well, this is just as a reader for the first time, it was a journey to go through this chapter. It's very short, it's only like 10 or 12 pages long or something. I think it's even shorter in the new book because the typeface is smaller, but it uh it takes you on a full journey, and this story this chapter could almost function as like a short story on its own. It provides all the context you need to understand what the characters are going through, who Pearl is, who Joseph is, who Leonard is, who Wilhelm Ryan is, more or less. Like you could almost read the story read this chapter in a vacuum and it could be its own little compelling story. But yeah, the the the plot twist that you reach at the end of the chapter where it's revealed that she's only been there for less than a day, even though in her mind it's been weeks, uh it just really messes with the reader's perception of uh well, I should say, perception versus reality. That's like a main theme throughout this chapter is what's real and what's not. Uh, you're left to kind of question everything at the end of it. And also Ryan has displayed these, you know, supernatural uh powers throughout the story too, where he like just uh teleports and vanishes randomly. So, you know, it in her mind he's vanishing, but maybe he's only vanishing for minutes, or maybe he's not vanishing at all. Maybe her psyche is just playing tricks on her. Uh, one of the ways he tries to reinforce the uh his claim that it's only been hours is that he says, Well, the guard over there hasn't changed his duty, he's been there the entire time. I would have swapped him out, and then he points out that, you know, check your fingernails. If you'd been here for weeks, then your fingernails would have grown out, but they're still exactly the same. And she can't move in her coffin very much, but she can feel the tips of her fingers, and she confirms that her nails are still cut short. And that is what is sort of becomes the catalyst or the breaking point of Pearl. And this chapter is is so tragic for a lot of reasons. Um, you know, the the emotional arc that she goes on where she's she doesn't necessarily blame her husband at the at the beginning, but she starts to very quickly, and then by the end of it, she's like, Go fucking burn in a fire with Wilhelm Ryan. I don't give a shit. I want my son back. Get me the fuck out of here. And then she's even like, kill Joseph, kill Leonard. I don't fucking care. Just let me let me out. And it's it's heartbreaking. I mean, Pearl is it's interesting. I I'm thinking about this now. I've thought about her as a very strong character throughout this entire story, but she's been wounded from the get-go. She's strong-willed, I think, uh, but she just goes through a whole lot of you know personal tragedy from the opening chapters of of this book that you really only get to meet her again in this grieving state. And she tries to hold it together, but this is the chapter that breaks and I think ultimately uh condemns Pearl. Like I sort of think of this chapter as the death of Pearl, even though she's not really dead yet. Maybe she will, maybe she won't. If you've listened to the Shattered Symphony, then you know what happens. But um this to me is like the point of no return for Pearl, and it's just so so tragic. Uh, and of course, it's juxtaposed. Uh we can get into this in a minute, but the lyrics of the song, I think, are actually mostly from Leonard's perspective about Pearl. So the chapter in the book and the song, I do think are about the same point in time in the story, but they're written from the perspective of different characters thinking about each other, or or I should say, processing the same events. So just a really interesting way to show that the music and the story tell two, you know, separate but obviously connected sides of the story. They both exist on their own. Obviously, you can enjoy the music without enjoying the story, but if you're like us and you want to get the full picture, presumably you do, because you're listening to this podcast, then this really showcases just all the elements uh of the characters, their emotions, and their their total arcs.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

Well, you mentioned the fingernail thing, and the fingernail thing is kind of where you start to question like, okay, so really has it only been hours? And another thing that happened. In the chapter, in her journal entry for day twenty three, near the end of that entry, Wilhelm Ryan says, Well, first she says, Go to hell, I tell him, even as my mind screams, Yes, yes, oh God, yes. And then Wilhelm Ryan says, or Joseph, he was the one who died and set all this into motion. And then she says in her mind, No, not my son, never my son, die in a fire, you bastard. And then it goes to day twenty-seven, four days later. And the first quote, when you get to day twenty-seven, is quote, or Joseph, he was the one who died and set all this into motion, which is the exact same thing that he had said in day twenty-three in her mind. And then it says after that, he says it just as if there had been no break in the conversation. So like that's a little bit of the author playing with us, giving us a line from day twenty three, and then giving us the same line in day twenty-seven, and saying that there the guy said it like no time had passed. So it's like probably no time has passed.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah. Little little hint to the audience. Uh yeah, I I I I didn't read this chapter directly before. I'm intimately familiar with it, so I felt comfortable to talk about it. But yeah, that is a that is an interesting, interesting little little hint that things maybe are not as they seem. Again, playing with the perception versus reality theme. Uh I was curious because I was like, I know this isn't an original concept. Obviously, other stories have have explored this theme before, but I I was you know wondering, I was like, what are the most like the biggest, most influential stories that maybe rubbed off on Claudio to to make him write a chapter like this? And I did a little research and the ones that that I came up with were Edgar Allan Poe's, The Pit and the Pendulum, and also George Orwell's 1984. They both have sort of long psychological torturous scenes where the main or the protagonist or or narrator uh you know they they kind of undergo this this breaking where they realize that their their situation is not at all what they thought that it was, and it it leaves them mentally devastated and ultimately breaks them. So those were I think maybe where Claudio could have gotten the idea from. It's possible that it was an original spark that that came into his head, but I I like diving into things to see where people might have gotten their influences from too.

SPEAKER_04 46:27

Well, uh, you're in luck because I've got Claudio on the line. He can tell you straight up, Claudio, what do you what do you say?

SPEAKER_00 46:33

I gotta go.

SPEAKER_04 46:35

Oh. Man, just kidding. I wish. Maybe someday we'll get Claudio on this podcast to explain all of the questions that we have about all of these songs. It'll take about three, four, five, six hours. We'll get through it all. One other thing I wanted. Oh, oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

I I was just gonna say something silly. I was gonna say I I had thought like today, like, oh, it'd be cool to get Shandra on the podcast and like ask her about Pearl of the Star. She she didn't write this this this book. She co-wrote later chapters of the Emery Wars, but I mean, obviously I I would imagine that Pearl is at least somewhat inspired by her.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

Right. One thing before we get into the music that I wanted to point out was there was a description of Wilhelm Ryan as if he had like open wounds on his face that were like oozing and leaking.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

He's nasty. He he needs to exfoliate.

SPEAKER_04 47:27

Right. Like if he's like this supreme being, like, can't he like take care of his acne problem or whatever's going on?

SPEAKER_00 47:35

I think he doesn't give a shit. I I think that Ryan Ryan sees himself as a god and he literally doesn't care what he looks like to other people.

SPEAKER_04 47:42

And so yeah, he probably should wash his face.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

No, Ryan, his skincare routine is not not a concern. But I I I agree for for healthier, healthier skin and longevity, uh, he should preserve some of that. He should he should work on longevity. Yeah, I mean get it get a nice moisturizer, exfoliate once in a while. Uh it did me wonders when I was in my twenties, and my now wife uh taught me how to properly wash my face. Now I feel great. I get compliments on my skin all the time. They say, Yo, you have such wonderful oozing pus marked wounds coming out of your face. What's that gelatinous substance? What brand do you use?

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Gelatinous substance. Okay, so let's uh let's dive into the music now. This is the fun part for us as musicians to talk about the music and the lyrics of the songs. And this song starts off with a nice acoustic guitar intro, starts the song leading into the vocals, the vocals. It is, we mentioned this earlier, I saved it for now, but the more deeper register that Claudio goes for on this song is a very sort of opposite of what we're used to hearing from him. And there are there are other examples of this throughout the discography, but to me it's a nice little flex of his that he can he can do the the high-pitched, all that stuff that everyone, oh, it sounds like rush or whatever, you know, but then he also can give you this real deep, sort of sultry, emotional, meaningful tones in his vocals, and he he puts that on display in this song for sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yeah, absolutely. And the the mixing of the vocal too is interesting because in the verses, when he goes low, it's very tight, very dry. It kind of sounds like he's like right next to you, like whispering in your ear. Uh, and then when you get to the choruses, it it opens up a lot. There's more reverb and it and it kind of matches the spacier, more atmospheric vibe as the song progresses. But it's a really starts at this very close and intimate feel, and then it it progressively kind of crescendos and gets more spacey and atmospheric as it goes on.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

Yeah, the the music also kind of builds in each verse into the chorus. The the music halfway through the verse is when the the bass kind of drops in and the drums come in. It feels to me like the drums he's playing with uh, I think a brush on the snare drum.

unknown 50:03

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

And the bass, we we talked about this earlier. The bass is really prominent in this song, and it's really kind of cool, and it's really, I think, the driving force of the song. I actually was because I'm such a rhythm person, I was I was listening to it. I was like, is there even guitar in this? But of course, just like the intro is all the guitar and the the big guitar solo, but the bass to me and the drums are very, very much prominent.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Yeah, the bass is really, really present in the mix, and I and I love it because it it's got it's not you know particularly like proggy, but it's got some just interesting dynamics to it. It's just steady and really holds down the song. Uh there's a that you're right about though about the guitar. It's interesting because the the acoustic guitar is very present in the beginning and and it's kept kind of center in the mix the whole time, and all the instruments kind of build around it, but when they start to build around it, you almost forget that it's there because it's just a constant presence of the song. It also is uh it's super clean and bright finger-picking style, which is different than most of the other guitar you hear on this record. I mean, granted, I I think to my knowledge, this is the only acoustic guitar or acoustic dominant song on the on the record. But it's just cool to showcase a different side of it. I I was curious and I looked it up, but uh he recorded it on a Taylor guitar, a Taylor uh Grand Symphony, uh, which has that both that brightness but also that warmth and resonance that I think was necessary to kind of cut through all the other spacier, more atmospheric elements of the song, too.

SPEAKER_04 51:37

Yeah. So let's uh let's go through the lyrics here for the verse. The lyrics are each night I wish to God he'd let her rest. This hurts me more than any man could bear. She's my angel from the West. There will never be one to take her place. I don't know that he knows what's going on, but I think he assumes that Pearl's being tortured or that she's in some peril. This hurts me more than any man could bear. Obviously, if your loved one is is not with you and you don't know what's happening, you're gonna be devastated by it. She's my angel from the west. It's him loving his wife and missing her. There will never be one to take her place. Like, I I think that one's pretty much pretty much obvious. I don't know, how do you feel?

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like I said earlier, I I think that this chapter or this song is almost entirely from the perspective of Leonard to Pearl. I can't uh we'll we'll go through the lyrics again and and double check it, but I can't really think of any other verses or parts off the top of my head where it's coming from someone else. I I I think that this is very much the the pain of their, you know, the love of their relationship that Leonard feels is lost or is lost, I should say. He says these lyrics or something very close to it earlier on in the book, and I should have gone through earlier and fucking sorry and bookmarked it. I don't know why I'm apologizing. Anyone who's listening to this podcast should be over 18. If you're not, that's fine, but don't repeat it. I was listening to Kohita 10, so I get it. I feel like it's at the end of Torn to Pieces, but yeah, it's after uh sorry, I can't find it. I I know for a fact though that he says almost these exact lines earlier on in I think chapter like five or six where he says, you know, each night I I wish to God that he'd let you rest. This hurts me more than any man can bear. So just cementing that this is this is absolutely Pearl. I mean, this is absolutely Leonard, you know, mourning the loss of the of the bond between them. So I th this could even be before she was taken, is when he's feeling these emotions.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

Yeah, that could be. The next part, I wrote it down as a pre-chorus, but really like it could all just be the chorus because every time they repeat it throughout the song, it's this whole part. It's it's what I have is the pre-chorus and then the chorus. And the bass kicks in and there's a little bit more ambience part happening, like more of the the just the vibe and the vibey, like kind of synth y parts and orchestral elements. Uh it's probably all synth. But I was gonna ask you about the bass. I don't even know if you know, but when it gets into the this part or the the chorus part, when it gets into the more doo-doo-doo-doo part, like is that just bass or is that synth or is that both?

SPEAKER_00 55:28

I think it's mostly bass. And actually, I think there's a lot more analog stuff on this uh well obviously there are analog synths, but what I mean is there's a lot more analog instruments going on in this song than we realize. The strings are real. Uh the strings are not synth. Uh specifically, there's a there's a viola credit uh player that was credited. There's double bass in it. So there's a there's a lot of really interesting uh live instruments and kind of orchestral arrangements going on in this one too, but it does feel you know sonically distinct from everything else on this record.

SPEAKER_04 56:05

One thing I had also in this part, when when the the rhythm picks up, when the bass picks up, when it gets into this quote unquote pre-chorus part, the drums add a little bit of a a tom feel to it, which is slight at first, it gets bigger as the song goes on, but it feels to me like, like I said earlier, that the snare he's playing with like a brush, the way it sounds, like it's hitting the snare. But all the stuff on the tom feels like he's playing with mallets, like the kind of thing you would play in an orchestra or like on a timpani or something. And it's it's an interesting sort of dual drumming. Like it was pieced together, I think, clearly, and it sound it fits the the song, I think, really great. It's it's it's very atmospheric and cool.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Yeah, I would agree. Uh that it's uh really just cool cool dynamic rhythmic stuff going on. That was a bad way of saying that. I'm not I'm not the drummer.

SPEAKER_04 57:02

Some cool stuff going on, guys.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Yeah, cool stuff. There's also uh there it it was it's tough to hear, but there's this like Glockenspiel kind of uh yeah. I I was calling them chimes, but like I don't know what it is, but yeah, there's some kind of metal, metal chimey it's it's to me it sounds like a Glockenspiel, like a metal xylophone. And uh it's it's real subtle, but it's it's definitely there. Yeah. And to me, that also kind of adds to um I like I wonder because when you think of those, I think of those as like representing like innocence, like children. Uh I feel like it's it's kind of like the loss of innocence, like hearkening back to Joseph, or maybe like Josephine being like the the the new potential child, like their second chance. I don't know. That that's that's kind of where my my my mind went when I heard those today, but I was like, oh, that's cool. I never picked up on those before.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. They're there and they are subtle, but when you when you hear them in the mix and you you point them out, it's like, oh, that is kind of nice. It's got like a a sound of innocence to them a little bit. So I'll I'll go through the lyrics for what I call the pre-chorus, and then I'll just add the chorus in also because this might, like I say, it might be the whole thing. You you tell me, but so when you go, I will know. Follow you to the stars, and when the world burns apart, there'll be a place for your dog.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

That's uh that's later chapters. That's that's there there is a a girlfriend with a dog who becomes really important to the story, but not this one.

SPEAKER_04 58:39

Um really, it's there'll be a place for your car, and then what I have as the chorus is I'd give you everything, if only I'd have known you'd take it, but you don't, because you're you. That's why I always love you. That's why I'll always love you, my pearl of the stars.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

In there, it's the one that you uh that you used as your misheard one, uh, but or in in place of it, but there'll be a place for your car. That always stood out to me as kind of like a it took me out of the sci-fi element of the story for a minute and brought me into the real world. Well, for one, there are cars in the Amory Wars. There are planets where technology is not that far off from what we have on Earth, and there are cars and planes and trains and automobiles, presumably, to get around. But I I kind of thought of it as like even if the world falls apart, at least like at least we'll have a place to park our car or something like that. Like that's that's kind of where where my mind went with it. I I feel like it must be some kind of inside joke between Claudio and Chandra, but maybe not.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

Well, if you look at it from that perspective, when you go, I will know, follow you to the stars, and when the world runs apart, there'll be a place for your car. It's basically like kind of like that whole juggernaut sort of feeling of they're together, and even if shit hits the fan, we have each other, and you you there's always a place for you here next to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Yeah, I think that's I think that's exactly the sentiment that he's describing there. And car is a funny way to put it, but it's also really intimate, you know? Conversations, closeness happens in cars. They're where we spend a huge amount of our lives together. So I'm sure that I'm sure Claudio and Chantra spent a lot of time in cars together, or have spent a lot of time in cars together. So presumably I know Leonard had a car or he had some kind of Land Speeder-like vehicle. Presumably they were they were driving around getting groceries together.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:26

The second part of that, the I'd give you everything if only I'd known you'd take it, that feels from the perspective of Leonard a little bit to me. It's sort of hard to say, but the the desperation, I'd give you everything if only I'd known you'd take it, feels to me like him like desperately sort of reaching out for his wife. And this is also what makes me think like, did she really love him to begin with? Like, is is is he having these internal conflicts before all this happened, and he's just trying to maintain a connection.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Yeah, uh it's interesting, isn't it? So he says those lines also, I think back in that same chapter that I was re was referencing and couldn't find, but he says, like, I'd give you everything, I'd give you anything, M-E-T, if only I'd know that you take it. So it is very much him trying to reach out to her. This was when she was kind of in her like catatonic state, still in the morning of the loss. I think right before the black rainbow or right after the black rainbow showed up, and he's just trying desperately to connect with her, and they have that little heart-to-heart moment. But yeah, it's just uh it's it's it's real desperate, it's it's very pleading, it's so sad.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:38

So after the first chorus, the song breaks down again just to the acoustic guitar. It's basically like it repeats the entire introduction verse and into the chorus again, just some different lyrics.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

With a little bit of atmospheric like horn or something going on in the background there. There's some more texture to it the second time.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:57

There's a little bit of more vibey stuff happening, but it's still like it really after the chorus, the chorus had like the sort of real drum feeling to it, and the more the whole band kind of feel and more stuff going on. It really does break it down again to basically just acoustic guitar to start off that verse. And the the second verse, the lyrics are the pills she takes, the pain of which she drowns, our baby sleeps next door, she's new in town. I'll tell her how wonderful you were. I'll remember everything you were to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

I mean, that obviously comes off like she's, you know, I don't know if it's literal, as in she's actually taking like medication to numb her pain, but that I think that that's like the implication is she's trying so hard to drown out her pain and her misery that she's, you know, she's she's taking anything she can to to numb it. Our baby sleeps next door, she's new in town. That's an interesting lyric. I mean, that to me is directly referencing the creation of Josephine, who uh we we we hinted at in the last um song Breakdown, but Josephine is is is uh artificially created human, like an iRobot as well. But she essentially is like a female version of of Joseph. She's another child of of Leonard and and Pearls created in this this Vat, but she is also the cure, spoiler alert, to the Monstar virus. She is the crux and and kind of like the fail-safe for Leonard's creation of the virus and his you know plan to hand it over to Ryan. And so he kind of puts all of their their hope and faith into this child who they'll really never meet. You know, he he he meets her in the sense when she's still an embryo, but he never gets to interact with Josephine, and and Pearl never even knows that Josephine exists. Pearl, I don't I don't want to spoil it, but she doesn't get that catharis.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:46

I didn't know all that stuff. I just really I just knew they created her. I didn't know she was the failsafe or that she has the cure. I didn't know any of that stuff. So there you go, ladies and gentlemen. The the the novel has been spoiled. Well the Emery Wars is concluded and the podcast ends on episode eight. Thank you very much and goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

It's been a lot of fun, ladies and gentlemen. Have a good night.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:09

No, I did not I did not know all that, so that's fascinating. Stuff to look forward to in the upcoming chapters.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

Okay, well I teased it. I teased it there a little bit. Um I I guess I can't really do a retroactive spoiler warning, so sorry. It's about the journey, not the destination, right? You'll see how it gets there.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:26

You said spoiler alert, then you just spoiled it. You gave it like a second. But anyway. So I I thought that too, knowing what little I knew of Josephine, that that was in reference to her. And by the way, Josephine? Really? That's the name you come up with? Like the female version of Joseph. So like if if if Zach died and I created a sister, I'd name her Zacharina.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

Um if you uh if if Callie died and you got a new male dog, you'd name it Cal.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:09

Joel and Joelle.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Yeah, it's um I don't know. I thought that was kind of funny. Well, Josephine, the character, was created first. Josephine's been around since the second stage Turbine Blade comics. Actually, she's been around since the second stage turbine blade came out because her name is in Devil in Jersey City. And I'm not sure about this. Someone will have to fact check me. If I'm wrong, please comment and tell me we're wrong because more comments uh do better for our engagement. But uh I think Claudio's sister in real life is actually named Josephine. I could be wrong. Um I know he has a sister Yeah, I know he has siblings named Matthew and Maria, who are also the names of uh future uh Kilganon children. Future future dead children. Oh my god, now you're spoiling it. Jeez. That's dark. We don't talk about uh those things on this podcast, not until the next chapter.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

But yeah, I I think that Josephine actually is is is a relative of Claudio's.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:12

Okay, we'll we'll fact check that later. So then the chorus, the second chorus is pretty much the same as the first chorus and what I call the pre-chorus, and then the orchestration kind of comes in near the end of the chorus and it goes straight into the bridge, which is the bridge is just this really what I describe for lack of better word as an epic guitar solo, and the drums are playing along with it, the bass is is driving with it, it turns into more of like a full band feel for like that couple of 30 seconds or whatever, however long the bridge is, and it it sounds not that the song doesn't sound like Koheed, but it's it's like it's got oh, there's that little Koheed flare there, you know. Kind of like on the brink a little.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

Yeah, totally. Uh you could tell it's it's a Travis solo without without even having to to to watch him or look it up. I mean, Travis, of course, is the uh the lead guitarist, quote unquote, but Claudio does his fair share of lead work too. He writes a lot of those parts, and he does, of course, solo on some of those songs too. But this is without a doubt a like quintessential Travis solo and oh how beautiful. You heard the song live, right? Uh when we during the never end or second stage tour.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:56

Yeah, I I mean I don't remember it particularly.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:59

Yeah, they did it. We were stripped down acoustic, but Travis's solo still shined in full force in that in that version of it. And I always remembered just being really entranced by that when I saw them during that tour.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:11

Yeah, I believe it. It is a it's a really beautiful guitar solo. And then after the solo is over, it comes to this nice kind of conclusion, and the music kind of fades out, and then we go back to the acoustic guitar, and it's just Claudio and the guitar, and he sings the chorus again, and at the end of it, this this first go-through on the the last chorus, it's almost like he's whispering. I mean, he kind of is whispering.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

I know follow you to the stars, and when the world burns a there'll be a place for your car.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:14

And then after that it kicks into the whole the whole vibe, everything from the previous choruses, plus extra sort of orchestration, extra like synth and stuff, like just sounds in the background. The the timpany mallet tom work is more amplified, it's bigger, the bass is very prominent, it just kind of rides to the end of the song. Lyrics are the same, but it's just a it's an epic sort of closing moment of the song, and it like leads all the way up to the end. It just it builds and builds and builds up until it just done.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

When you go, Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Epic song, man. Like I said, the song fucking slaps.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:37

Yeah, you did say that. And I believe I said, Is that what it does?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Maybe it is confirmed, indeed it does.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:44

Well, I I don't dislike any Koheed songs, but this has never been one of my favorite songs, believe it or not. And I have a new like all these songs, I have a new appreciation for it, having listened to it and really sort of broken it down like we have here, and like obviously the chapter stands out a lot in my mind, and that has helped a lot of these songs, like The Shattered Symphony to me will never be the same after reading that chapter and like really getting the story part to it. This one, like pairing the two together, it definitely makes the song more meaningful and impactful to me. And again, I didn't I never disliked any Koheed songs, but this was like kind of more lower tier for me, but it's it's it's it is it fucking slaps.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

Yeah, I I I think that the the lore component of this song absolutely makes the the song a more better and more emotional listen. On its own, it's a great song too. Uh I mean uh for all the musical reasons we just described, it's it's a fantastic sonic element. It's a great, it's per it's placed perfectly in the record. I was thinking about this too. It its placement on You're the Black Rainbow kind of reminds me of the placement in of the acoustic songs in No World for Tomorrow, where we have Mother Superior, right before you jump into the the heavier kind of back half of that album. And then also in Window of the Waking Mind, where right before you go into Ladders of Supremacy and Nayanasha, you have Our Love, this like beautiful, heartfelt, acoustic, emotional battle that you know Claudio wrote with genre in mind. And maybe even Corner My Confidence, but Radio Corner My Confidence and Faxes 3, you got Someone Who Can, which also fucking slaps. But obviously they they think about these things a lot, I'm sure, before they decide the track placement, because they want it to make pla they want it to make sense musically and thematically, but they do such a good job, and I really do think that Pearl is like at the perfect place for Beer the Black Rainbow where it could be. Because the next track is so dark and so heavy, and it also is kind of an emotional counterpoint to this song, too, where I don't want to spoil it, we'll get into it next uh next episode, but things only start to heat up from here.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:00

So for file this away for later, I was trying to think of something, and the only thing I that I kept coming to is something that we've already talked about, which is like Pearl's mental state and what happens to her after she gets released. And yeah. Like just the whole her whole mental state in this this chapter breaking down the way that she does, file that away for later because it comes back in a big way to haunt her and the people in her life. But did you have anything that that you wanted us to remember to to sprinkle in for uh file this away for later?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

Yeah, it's not really um it it's not really explored too much in this song or this chapter, but the character of Pearl, I mean, it's it's there in her Wikipedia bio that says she's the creator of the syringe dragonfly. I just think that's important to remember that Pearl is the the genius, the the mind behind something that is so iconic to uh the Koheed mythos. I wore my you can't see it, I wore my dragonfly t-shirt today for for Pearl because she set all the wheels in motion by creating that you wore your Millington brass emo band shirt. I see that. All the listeners, you just have to wonder what our beautiful, beautiful chests look like in these fantastic garments. But I I I just think that for her contribution to the story, it's it's sad that she doesn't have more to do, but what she does do, uh she she's a very focal point of this of this story, and uh her legacy will live on in multiple ways. So I would just say file pearl and everything she's done away for later.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:39

The the threads that she begins blossom and basically dictate where a lot of the rest of the Animory Wars goes in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:47

Yeah. I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

Oh, you sound so enthused.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:53

Okay, what's the question?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

There you go, that's better. Um, do you think that Pearl is the broken?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:01

Uh yes, next question.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

Wow, okay. We solved it, folks. There it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:06

No, I I think I think there's something to that theory. I I I don't know that I thought about that before, but she is definitely broken, if not the broken. So if you go if you go back thematically to to that verse or that that song, the world looks bigger when you're falling, better when you're falling, you know. She does fall. She could be going through her mental hurdles.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

She falls into madness, she falls out of a tree. Spoiler alert. But she's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:36

Do you think of her that way?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:37

I didn't until today uh when I was recapping it. I was like, you know, because I kept I I kept thinking of this is the chapter where Pearl breaks, and I'm like, oh she's broken. She's the is she the broken? I don't I don't think that the broken is necessarily one particular person, place, or thing. I think it's a combination of of you know the it's like every the the the globe is starting to shatter, but Pearl is is a huge crux of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:04

Right. I I it's an interesting question. And yes, we solved it. Answer is yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

We did it, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:14

So now it's our goodbye outro. I want to preview the next episode. It's going to be for the song In the Flame of Error, and I don't want to spoil it too much, but I may have gotten us a special guest for that episode, which is exciting.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:32

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:33

Um it's exciting if we can get this person on. And other than that, do you know, can you tell us off the top of your head like what chapters in the flame of error covers so those who are reading along can keep up?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

Yeah, so there is a chapter called In the Flame of Error, so that would be included with this one. It's chapter 17, but I think we left off with chapter 16 when we did Made Out of Nothing, or Chapter 15. So you gotta read chapter 16 first, which is called All Falls Apart. Uh if you already read it, then you're fine. But uh In the Flame of Error, chapter 17, that's really what we're going to be diving into uh in the next one. And that's right, because after that is chapter 18, the Shattered Symphony. We already talked about that. So yeah, just those two chapters I would I would read and familiarize yourself with before we dive into the next uh next song.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:23

Excellent, excellent work. Yeah, we really we really broke this one down.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:30

So this was a lot of fun. I like talking about this one.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:32

Yeah, no, we went over an hour.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

Um so I don't think I don't care if no one listens to our podcast, but that's not true because we do have listeners.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:42

And uh I live in Ashburn, Virginia. Shout out, Virginia!

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

And we love you. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:52

Yeah. All right, uh, so with all that, uh, we'll catch you in two weeks for In the Flame of Air. Uh, thank you very much for listening to the Koheed Chronicles.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:59

Yeah, thank you. And I just want to say if you like it and you know other Coheed fans in your life, uh share it with a friend because uh word of mouth and personal recommendations are the best way to share uh share you know underground content like that. So thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:13

When you go,